What are the implications of that graph and feminist anger?
I think feminist anger is rather different from bitterness.
Feminist anger is righteous anger. Generally speaking.
I think you could correlate feminist anger and generic bitterness... in feminist at least. Heck I might even say one causes the other. Or they one cause each other in feminist.And even if they don't, if you replace the y-axis with 'feminist anger' you might get the same graph...Of course, you could replace the y-axis with privilege, but just because you can does not mean each is not its own specific concern.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Insulting other commenters won't be tolerated Burn. I generally avoid comment moderation in general, but you've established a pattern here, and I'm done putting up with it. Argue with our words and claims all you want. No more personal insults.And her name is "Kate," in case that wasn't clear to you.Incidentally, I can't imagine why you would think that Indexed is supposed to be reflective of actual statistics. It's an odd assumption to make. I'm guessing you've never actually looked at the blog or read the description?
I think anger and bitterness are very different. Often times a conflict that started with anger turns into bitterness over time if it's not resolved. And often, reflecting on things that made you angry helps you deal with it, and diffuses the anger before it turns into bitterness. But feeling like you have no control over the situation, or like you're not valued, will definitly produce bitterness over time. And why shouldn't it?
Steven,I think sometimes oppression produces bitterness, but not always. So to correlate all feminist anger and bitterness would be too broad of a generalization. And isn't there such a thing as righteous anger? Shouldn't we feel anger when we see rape and abuse and economic oppression? What kind of people would we be if we didn't feel anger at these kinds of things?Sadie,I agree that lack of resolution is often what turns anger into bitterness. And I've heard that public acknowledgment of the seriousness of a person's victimization (in cases of war atrocities and genocide, for instance) is one of the conditions that facilitates forgiveness and resolution for those who have been mistreated. So I guess that would translate like this: if your culture refuses to admit that your group has been marginalized and oppressed, it's less likely that you'll work through your anger and be able to move on in a healthy way. And sometimes just having a supportive group of allies, and coming to believe that your value as a person is not accurately assessed on the basis of your society's valuation of you, helps diffuse that anger before it turns into bitterness. So that's certainly a role that reflection can play in this kind of scenario.
No Burn, K8 hasn't said anything to me about it. But I'd like to maintain a minimum level of discourse here. So you can just keep on posting comments that use derogatory names for other commenters, and I'll just keep deleting them. Or you can drop the antics and I'll leave your comments here for others to read. You decide.
Rachel,Can't handle the heat huh? I thought that Feminism was all about how capable, smart & fearless women are and how they want to and can handle playing with the boys. Remember that "Girl Power" Thing? What Happened? Turns out you goofs just want to rewrite the rules and lower the bar. Now there's some progress.It's amazing how whenever you are wrong or get busted on a fact you conveniently change course or don't address the issue. How about answering what I originally said about the gonad post on Indexed? You know, the post you deleted...For the record the 75% comp level for chick salaries is total bullshit. If not, quote a confirmable source and I'll be happy to verify it and share it back with your clones. Make sure to account for average weekly hours worked and all other variables that might actually in some way support what Indexed is saying. Don't forget to make sure you disclose industries. I won't hold my breath on your response.You are operating at a real disadvantage, having never worked in the real world. I guess that's why you keep looking for BS like the gonad chart that conveniently support your twisted world view. I would think that as a professional educator you would be holding yourself to a bit a higher factual standard. The good news for you is that since most of the folks you are feeding your BS are your students you kind of have a captive audience. I know it's really cool and fashionable for academics and their ilk to throw charts and graphs out to the population that support their perverse world view but if you're going to quote numbers I suggest that in the future you check them before doing your monkey act.As long as your fellow dream weavers at Indexed stick to fantasy land I'm fine with it, but once they start putting images and data that are completely fiction that's where it should stop. Not that you normally let the facts get in the way. Puff on that for a while, or delete it. Doesn't matter to me. Burn,bHbKbF
Burn, As I stated, in order to maintain a minimal level of discourse here, I'm not tolerating insulting language. If you recall, that language wasn't even directed at me, so it's puzzling that you assume I'm trying to protect myself. But of course I can take it. I've been called all kinds of things. That's how the privileged attempt to silence the voices that oppose them. I can take it. Do I think people should have to take it? No. Do I think you should grow up enough to be able to engage in dialogue without hurling petty insults? God, yes.I assume the indexed card to which you refer was based on the gender wage gap. Ever heard of it? It's well-researched and pretty well established. In my state women make 60 cents on the dollar, and nationally it's 77 cents. And I'm amazed at your assumption that I never worked in the real world. I've had a job since I was 15. I started at Starbucks at that age, and worked there throughout my high school and undergrad years. By the time I was 18 I was an assistant manager, and I was managing a store by the age of 20. When I graduated they offered to pay for my tuition in an MBA program in exchange for my signing a contract to stay with the company at least 5 years following graduation, with the understanding that I would be promoted through middle management, because several key people were planning on retiring in the near future. I seriously considered it, but then chose to move away in order to go to grad school in a different field. While I was a grad school I managed a Sylvan Learning Center for three years. No doubt you'll scoff at these companies and these jobs. Feel free. Some of us have different values than you. Some of us think there's more to life than making a buck or being able to brag about your real or imaginary jobs and income. I could be in a very comfortable position financially right now if that was the path I had chosen. I didn't choose that path, because I was interested in other things and am not the type of person who needs to be making tons of money. You know, not everyone measures their success by how much money they make, or the size of the companies they've worked for. Not everyone is obsessed with income and power, and needs to be able to brag about these things in order to feel that their life has been worth living, Burn.
Rachel - 1 of 2I guess "minimal level of discourse" is defined as when you get uncomfortable with what you're hearing, huh? I think I understand you're trying to protect your thinner-skinned, less talented and / or less experienced apprentices. Maybe you shouldn't refer your students to your blog unless you can control the environment more effectively and get rid of people that bring some reality to the party, like me. Explain to me exactly how I'm privileged. I work my sixty hour weeks and pay more in taxes than most of you folks make in a year who are sitting on your asses pondering theoretical bullshit, living off student loans, your parents, your spouses or the taxpayers. Please spare me on the Privilege argument. Remember I actually did the university thing, been there, done that. I've personally observed the profs that generally taught two or three hours of classes per day and after that just sat on their asses trying to be cool and superior to the masses. I didn't think they mattered then and I still don't. You being such an unbelievably bright & open minded type PhD I'd think you would have a bit broader perspective, but maybe that only pertains to people you agree with. Telling me to grow up PROBABLY won't make me feel too hurt. Remember, I've kinda already been to war and returned home having won. I've most certainly heard of the mythical gender wage gap that feminists like you continue to quote without independent verifiable sourcing or any robust analysis of your claims. Give me a source and I'll be happy to cross check it against mine. This stat has now reached "urban myth" levels and needs to be debunked. It's incredible to me that people as smart as you try to pass this off as fact without considering any other variables. Maybe you and your cohorts think trying to solve a complex issue like this by measuring only one variable and then making erroneous general societal claims that won't hold up under any level of professional statistical scrutiny is OK. Personally and Professionally I don't. That's the problem, somehow feminists have been able to convince society that this is a given. So…give me your sources (second request I think). In any case, I don't know how to prepare, percolate, simmer, pour or even drink an espresso or a cappuccino, so you've got one up on me. I've got a different drink of choice. I figured there was something that I missed in life. Just what Starbucks needs is fricking MBAs, Jesus Christ. Have you ever worked with a MBA in a business setting? In general it's not a pretty thing.I'm sure you were high potential back in the day and you are obviously bright, although probably even back then a bit of a martyr. You were obviously just spiritually lead to the path of Philosophy, student loans, sleeping in and whatever else made more sense than a real fricking job. Good for you. Seems you've worked the deal successfully, although I can't comment on the balances of your student loans or if you've asked them to be forgiven yet. I actually had an early morning paper route in Montana starting when I was like 10 years old. Does that mean I've worked in the real world? I'm not thinking it does, but I did succeed in freezing my ass off. That's probably why I live in Long Beach now. In any case it did suck trying to ride my bike in 12 inches of snow. I'm thinking it was like a character builder, but not so much job experience.
2 of 2Now, between you and your girlfriend Brioche it seems you're still calling me liar on my profession / income. Where I come from, calling someone a liar is Not A Good Thing, unless they actually are one. Maybe it's not so much of a problem on the East Coast or California where most of you goofs were raised or hang out. So now you girls have succeeded in pissing me off. Not in a violent way, but pissed in any case. I'm sitting here looking at my most recent paycheck stub as I write this. Now this info has already been reported and paid to the Government, so there's no big secret on the tax side of this deal. I'd like one of you empowered Feminists to take me up on a bet to confirm just my salary related income and withholding taxes since you seem to feel I'm full of shit. No investment income or other stuff. Here's the deal. I'll put up $20,000.00 in real American greenbacks on a bet that the following information is true. If you goofs really think I'm such a bullshit artist step up and take the bet. I can always use an extra $20K. Either you or one of your Feminist Clones must have a trust fund or parents with bucks that want to support your worthy cause. Maybe they can call it a gambling loss after I win the bet. If they make serious income they probably need some losses for tax purposes in any case. However if you're right in calling me a liar here's a chance for some easy money. Maybe you can buy a new Subaru or something else that's PC.Here are the facts we're betting on. I'm saying the following is true as of today, 9/25/09 for the 2009 tax year. You are saying it isn't true. Simple Deal. Twenty Grand.YTD 2009 Data - Gross Income @ $263,444.69 less Federal Income Tax Witholding @ $61,926.12, FICA @ $6,621.60, Medicare @ $3,816.69, CA Income Tax Withholding @ $17,404.10 and CA State Disability of $997.36. So that's a total of $90,765.87 in withholding taxes and other crap that has been taken out of my checks. Rachel - you have my personal email address. Let's do this bet. No Guts, no Glory. If not you and your girlfriend Brioche need to STFU on this issue. I'd rather take the bet though…It would make me warm inside to relieve you and your sisters of $20K AND prove that you are full of shit.I love how you academics feel that your lives are somehow more meaningful than others' just because you are you. It's amazing. It's going to be a bit hard for me to apologize for being successful, although trust me when I say that I've dealt with enough of you folks to understand that you feel that making money and paying taxes is somehow beneath you from a character standpoint. The amazing thing to me about academics is that they are fully satisfied to spend their lives on the sidelines, being theoretical and telling everyone how very few people, except special folks like themselves, "get it". This of course doesn't stop them from throwing rocks at people that actually have the to balls to do it. Pretty perverse. I'm really not interested in your sanctimonious bullshit about a "life worth living". Give me a fricking break. Who anointed you to make judgement calls on whether a life is worth living or not? The scary thing is that you might actually believe your own line of BS. I wish I had a buck for every person that has never done shit that has told me they could be pulling down a couple hundred grand a year by now "if they had wanted to". Trust me, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. Remember the quote from that famous Cowboy…"If you've done it, it ain't braggin'".I guess it's a good thing that there are morons out there like me that actually pay taxes. No matter what we need to keep you folks comfortable in your alternate reality… BurnbHbKbF
Someone needs to tell BurnBorther that he's embarassing himself.
Hey JoanofArc, Actually what is happening is that I called bullshit on your friends and they have been non-responsive to the legitimate issues raised. Doesn't seem like a very academically robust outcome, but what do I know? I was going to goof on you about your name, but I keep getting in trouble due to all of the sensitive types on this blog.Maybe you and your fellow Feminist Philosophers can start a pool to help Rachel and her friend find that $20k for the bet. Then after you win you can all go up into the mountains and have a retreat to discuss the deep issues that exist in society today. Maybe you can solve the serious problem that foolish folks like me are actually allowed to succeed while extremely bright people with important advanced degrees spend their lives chasing poorly paid gigs. When you come up with the solution write a book and enlighten the masses. Good Luck.BurnbHbKbF
Info on the wage gap:http://doe.state.wy.us/lmi/0407/a1.htm#a1g3http://www.equalitystate.org/PDFs/State_of_Working_Wyoming.pdfhttp://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Jobs/jobs_for_women.html
That's funny Burn. See, some people don't just thoughtlessly buy the conventional definition of success that's pushed on us by our culture - and you're so dense you can't even get that fact, even when it's explicitly pointed out to you. We don't all share your values or your worldview, so the things you say to/about us that seem so horrible to you are not really insults to us. Some of us view a life that's spent in the relentless pursuit of power and money as a wasted life, so no amount of bragging about your alleged jobs and income is going to impress us or convert us to your view.
Martin - great, but you didn't address my original issue. I know it's fashionable and PC to take this position, but it doesn't address the real facts at the appropriate level of detail. It's pretty clear you're not getting it, but at least you made an effort, which I appreciate. Tonight when you put your head on your pillow please consider that there may be reasons (other than plumbing) that explain your "proven" wage differential. It's pretty clear you people don't want to honestly approach this issue so please save it for someone foolish enough to buy your program.Ms. Arc - So...Just to make sure I understand your deeply philosophical response I guess because I'm successful in the real world that my view of life is meaningless? Further that because I don't buy into your "world view" I'm dense. This position keeps coming up with you and your girlfriends about my "alleged jobs & income". I frankly don't give a shit if you believe it or not. My point, which has been made every time it came down to someone doing something on this blog, is that I'm willing to back up what I'm saying with something material and you losers just continue to call me a liar, even after I've given you a way to make a bunch of money if I end up being the bullshit artist you chicks claim I am. What's with that? I can't believe that none of you goofballs have someone that is capable of fronting you the money and taking the loss when I prove that you are all full of it. Maybe you're in denial…more likely no one with the important combination of money and brains is foolish enough to take my bet. What do you think?If I've made you somehow think that my only goal in life is the relentless pursuit of power and money then that's my bad. That's just what I do as I career, the money and power just follows if you are competent. You might want to think about trying it sometime. Actually it's how I support my family and build my future. I actually add value to many people's lives in many ways that are frankly none of your business. But I really appreciate the depth of your insight. It's intriguing to me that you think there is something noble about not making money. Maybe you should hop a boat to Cuba or somewhere else that fits your world view better than the U.S.. You may have to spend some time explaining the "Joan of Arc" handle, but give that is seems like you're very educated I'm sure you can handle the challenge.Finally, and I think this proves up what I've been saying from early on, they only view you folks are comfortable with is being full time victims. You aren't comfortable when someone calls BS on your foolishness. I'd love to sit down with you posers and review the people who's lives have actually been improved by our respective efforts. I'm 100% positive that your list will be relatively short whereas mine is guaranteed to be long and meaningful in a real world sense. I know real world solutions aren't very high on you folks' list of important things, but the real world actually matters. PLEASE, take my bet or do something other than pontificate.Mother Rachel - keep looking for those investors for the bet. Think New Subaru…Wow!Burn