tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post4288133218901643720..comments2023-09-28T19:10:43.760-06:00Comments on The Feminist Agenda: Clusterfuck of the DayRachelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-22812572647173056212010-05-04T18:24:56.404-06:002010-05-04T18:24:56.404-06:00I'm in the camp that thinks you didn't eve...I'm in the camp that thinks you didn't even have to mention Jillian Michaels to make your point. I get that this is what made you start thinking along these lines, but I think there are lots of people out there who can't read past the whole Jillian Michaels thing, and it's a shame. Attention spans FTW!Livienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-89824496679096289382010-04-30T23:03:35.126-06:002010-04-30T23:03:35.126-06:00Wow, a friend linked me to this post last week but...Wow, a friend linked me to this post last week but I just now read it. There's a lot to process here, and I've just started chewing on it, but thanks for bringing these things up and making us all take a step back and rethink it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-59186985998175969642010-04-28T16:08:39.397-06:002010-04-28T16:08:39.397-06:00this all reaks of privelige. so you had a natural ...<i>this all reaks of privelige. so you had a natural childbirth expeience? hooray for you. but please stop stepping on thos of us who couldnt</i><br /><br />So...frankly I'm a little bit confused on how this comment is relevant to this post, but I'll respond to it tomorrow, when I will hopefully have more time.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-40583908784569480662010-04-28T12:23:15.583-06:002010-04-28T12:23:15.583-06:00Hmm, come to think about it, my comments indeed ar...Hmm, come to think about it, my comments indeed are directed at, uh, nothing Rachel said. So, i am sorry if it came as some really weird straw man :)<br /><br />(don't think it was language, it happens all the time on the web, people misunderstanding each other, and i was writing right after i was reading about this case elsewhere, and was a bit angry about all the flak she caught for saying that, especially people thinking she said anything about ruining body, when it's probably some journalist invention, as usual trying to make reporting more controversial)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-90080087157541995892010-04-27T15:06:37.095-06:002010-04-27T15:06:37.095-06:00Holy cow! How did you get that out of this post?!...Holy cow! How did you get <i>that</i> out of this post?!?Keelynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-38505344698002701812010-04-27T10:55:16.460-06:002010-04-27T10:55:16.460-06:00this all reaks of privelige. so you had a natural...this all reaks of privelige. so you had a natural childbirth expeience? hooray for you. but please stop stepping on thos of us who couldntAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-14803350948463650922010-04-26T22:56:03.572-06:002010-04-26T22:56:03.572-06:00I realize I'm coming to this late, but I'm...I realize I'm coming to this late, but I'm suprised that this is such a lightening-bolt issue. Everything you say in this post seems undeniably true to me, yet it generates so much discussion and disagreemnt. Hmm.<br /><br />GinaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-15881809989650715012010-04-26T22:38:55.218-06:002010-04-26T22:38:55.218-06:00What do you think about this trend where pregnant ...What do you think about this trend where pregnant characters in TV shows have this phase where they're in denial about being in labor because they're afraid of childbirth? I think the most recent example is Pam from the Office. Do you think this is a sort of accurate reflection of a trend that comes out of our cultural fear of childbirth, or just another instance of look-at-the-irrational-prego-lady?L'inglenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-52815511593640106052010-04-26T14:25:36.103-06:002010-04-26T14:25:36.103-06:00This might just be a language issue. Tomek, that ...This might just be a language issue. Tomek, that quote you refer to is not claiming that it's not true that women have to explain their reproductive choices, but that it is true, and this sucks. When women in America choose not to have kids, they experience a lot of social pressure and have to repeatedly justify their decision. This is what she was referring to, and she said it's "fucked," meaning that it shouldn't be that way.Mayonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-41831228973112565392010-04-26T13:48:02.245-06:002010-04-26T13:48:02.245-06:00I don't know Tomek, I think the cultural view ...I don't know Tomek, I think the cultural view that enduring pregnancy and birth is like cutting off your arm <i>is</i> really fucked. Do you think this view is unproblematic? If so, why?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-80099627432144587182010-04-26T13:39:45.686-06:002010-04-26T13:39:45.686-06:00I'm not sure I'm following this last comme...I'm not sure I'm following this last comment exchange. Just to clarify (and I thought I was already pretty clear about this...) I am not advocating for anyone to have a kid if they don't want to. I'm not trying to convince anyone that pregnancy and childbirth are great experiences. I don't think anyone should have to explain their reproductive choices to anyone else. I think "reproductive freedom" should encompass all the choices a woman might make concerning her body. In fact, this blog post was not about Jillian Michaels, but rather about the underlying cultural attitudes toward pregnancy and childbirth that were reflected in her explanation of her choice. I think she should be able to make whatever choice she wants, without offering any explanation at all, but I think the one she did offer is particularly telling about how pregnancy and childbirth are constructed in our culture. And I do have an issue with the way our culture constructs these experiences, but I am not criticizing or scrutinizing or blaming or pointing fingers at Ms. Michaels at all. She may do whatever she sees fit with her own body.<br /><br />Does that help?Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-49088501975218322542010-04-26T09:16:45.511-06:002010-04-26T09:16:45.511-06:00In a way you that's true, and in a way it isn&...In a way you that's true, and in a way it isn't. That's because i wasn't commenting on the post itself, but Rachel's latest comment. I'd also like to point that this:<br /><br />"And this cultural view is fucked, along with the fact that women have to explain their reproductive choices at all."<br /><br />Isn't really true. The people that decide they want adoption/don't want kids at all get all sorts of scrutiny for their motives, of which Jillian Michaels is prime example (that said, her remark about rescuing is indeed a bit troubling...), but when it comes to biokids? Don't think so. Reminds me of the comment i read recently that pointed it quite well:<br /><br />"Why don't we put the same pressure on women who choose to have children to explain their reasoning and then pick it apart? You want something that's a mix of you and your husband? You think your DNA is special and important enough to need to continue? You want something that will love you unconditionally? You want to undo damage done to you as a child? You want to meet the expectations of your family and peer group? See, none of those are particularly compelling to me, personally. But mothers don't have to constantly validate their choice. They can reproduce for any shitty reason at all and it's totally OK. It's only the childfree/childless/non-mothers that we put on the defensive."<br /><br />Note, that while i endorse actively analyzing oneself motives, i really don't appreciate finger-pointing, blaming and high-horsey scrutiny.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-82218945800894686262010-04-26T08:37:24.651-06:002010-04-26T08:37:24.651-06:00@ Tomek: I think you misunderstood the post. I d...@ Tomek: I think you misunderstood the post. I didn't read this as claiming that pregnancy is a totally positive experience and everyone should do it. Did you read the last bit about reproductive freedom? This post was actually about the way pregnancy and childbirth are constructed in America, and making it about Jillian Michals is your own weird (mis)interpretation.Myleenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-83523597050355212652010-04-26T05:20:43.490-06:002010-04-26T05:20:43.490-06:00@Rachel
"She said she didn't think she c...@Rachel<br /><br />"She said she didn't think she could handle "doing that to her body." As if childbirth is akin to cutting off your arm."<br /><br />Uh, that's your interpretation. To me it sounds much more ambigous, like she thinks that changes that pregnancy (not childbirth!) would bring to her body would be hardly positive. Which is rather unsurprising, i mean, what's exactly that positive about being pregnant, physically? Had i been a woman and actually wanted to raisse a kid, i'd never decide to get pregnant myself. What for?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-63365856622112887742010-04-25T21:20:16.751-06:002010-04-25T21:20:16.751-06:00I though this was helpful, and points out some of ...I though this was helpful, and points out some of the shortcomings of our medical system that you referred to:<br />http://www.childbirthconnection.org/article.asp?ck=10456Shaylanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-16224825717284291452010-04-25T17:50:27.817-06:002010-04-25T17:50:27.817-06:00It's almost unusual to find a woman in my part...It's almost unusual to find a woman in my part of western kentucky who had a baby any way other than c-section. And they often say "I had to have a c-section..." with such certainty. I also suspect that there is a link between the increase in maternal mortality and the prevalence of c-sections. Doctors make a lot more money, and are considerable less "inconvenienced" when the mother delivers via c-section instead of naturally.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-44501839799239799472010-04-25T08:07:30.504-06:002010-04-25T08:07:30.504-06:00To the commenter upthread who mentioned the matern...To the commenter upthread who mentioned the maternal morality rate in countries where medical care is lacking... in the US we have now surpassed some of those countries, and our maternal mortality rate continues to climb as our c-section rate climbs. There's a lot of denial about it and a "goshgollygee what's causing this to happen?" attitude within the medical community, but to everyone else who doesn't have a stake in increasing c-section rates, these are obviously linked.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-4665260107789138912010-04-24T20:23:54.087-06:002010-04-24T20:23:54.087-06:00ditto to the doula comment up above! when you fin...ditto to the doula comment up above! when you find yourself in the grip of the medical machinery its one of the times in your life when you need an advocate more than ever. also that's one of the best descriptive phrases ever coined and I plan to unashamedly steal it whenever I see fit.Serendipitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-77217979361096663572010-04-24T20:17:02.087-06:002010-04-24T20:17:02.087-06:00I'm in between a bunch of chaotic activities b...I'm in between a bunch of chaotic activities but just wanted to post a quick response to several of the comments about Jillian Michael's choice not to reproduce. I absolutely believe she should have the choice not to bear a child, and that she shouldn't have to defend that choice in any way at all. And I sort of think the pressure to defend her choice is intensified by our cultural narratives surrounding bi or lesbian women. But that's a whole other post. <br /><br />The title of this post was actually originally a reference to the clusterfuck of media coverage and comments and fucked up attitudes that have been revealed by her making this statement. But I also think it's telling how she phrased it. She said she didn't think she could handle "doing that to her body." As if childbirth is akin to cutting off your arm. And this cultural view is fucked, along with the fact that women have to explain their reproductive choices at all. But I guess I'm more than a little irritated that "reproductive choice" has sort of come to mean "access to abortion" and that's it. Abortion is without a doubt an immensely important issue. But so is the right to choose not to have kids at all, the right to choose how you will give birth without being bullied and portrayed as an imbalanced conspiracy theorist who's bent on harming your child, and the right to have access to medical sterilization without getting your husband's signature. And it just seems to me like these other issues fall by the wayside most of the time, and we allow a patriarchal medical establishment to dictate to us how it works. But of course, the most fundamental unit needed to build and maintain a patriarchy is docile bodies. So before I turn this comment into a caffeine-fueled, theory-heavy rant, I'm gonna call it good and head off to the next round of exhausting weekend activities. Have a great night everyone!Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-48872498135829268552010-04-24T19:50:59.806-06:002010-04-24T19:50:59.806-06:00tammypierce,
I disagree that we're inundated ...tammypierce,<br /><br />I disagree that we're inundated with the best information that can be had. My first pregnancy was during grad school, so naturally my instinct was to get a lot of books and read everything I could find about pregnancy and childbirth. I was astounded by the misinformation that's a regular part of our cultural narrative about childbirth and pregnancy, and much of this came from the doctors and nurses themselves. I was not informed of the many risks involved with epidurals, and the fact that going the epidural-pitocin route pretty much always removes the mother's ability to move around and try different positions and have any physical control over the birth. I was also not informed that your chances of c-section double with the epidural-pitocin combo, and your chances of all the other interventions sharply increase as well. When I told a few close friends that I was having second thoughts about the epidural, they acted like I had lost my mind, and said things like "you know it's 100% safe, right?" And of course they would say that, because that's what you're told by your doctor. So I think there's a huge issue surrounding informed consent in this case. Mothers are usually not given the kinds of info and time to make decisions concerning childbirth that they would be required to have in almost any other medical situation. That's a major concern to me and I think it's a huge feminist issue that somehow the rules about informed consent don't apply in the area of reproductive health the way they do elsewhere. And I think it's another way our autonomy is torn from us during the process of childbirth, to use Rachel's phrasing.Laceynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-31753500018549862212010-04-24T15:55:05.948-06:002010-04-24T15:55:05.948-06:00Here via Shakesville, with comments which may be p...Here via Shakesville, with comments which may be perceived as odd. (Not Shakesville's fault.) While I think Ms. Michaels' objection--that she may ruin her body--is particularly silly (are we not deluged with magazine stories of celebrity women who have regained their "pre-baby" figures in lightning time), I also believe that every woman has a right to her opinion on the issue, no matter what it is. I'd also like to point out that she has said if she wants a kid, she'll adopt, which is going to be a good thing for a kid without a home, and there are a lot of those in the world.<br /><br />I never had children. My mother saw to that by brainwashing me with long lectures about the hellishness and ugliness, let alone the pain and terror, of carrying me to term. She started when I was a pre-teen, and didn't let up until I left home for college. Hitler could have learned from my mother when it came to brainwashing.<br /><br />However, when it comes to other people's choices and what I've seen on tv and movies--those things are obviously silly. Just compare them to the women we see on the street, the conversations we hear from co-workers, and the experiences of our friends. Women talk. We talk in the ladies' rooms, over lunch, while shopping, at dinner, at the movies. We talk about everything. Even the childless hear stories about other people's pregnancies, and if we pay attention, we learn that every pregnancy is different. The recovery from every pregnancy is different. Some of us go the drug route, some don't. Some bounce back, some don't. And the media DO keep us aware of the dangers, just as responsible ob/gyns keep us aware if we're hearing alarmist information or things that reasonable people should keep in mind.<br /><br />People who tell other people to have kids are idiots. It's the most personal decision a woman can make, and apart from her partner, she has to make it herself. It's her body and her life.<br /><br />But as for those who are considering the decision? We are inundated with the best, most up-to-date information women have ever had (I speak of women in the western world), and most of us are exposed to a number of different choices, so we aren't forced to go one way or another. Most of us don't HAVE to go natural (::shudder::); most of us are beginning to learn that too many C-sections are a bad idea (talk about something that should have been obvious). If we stop, and think, and proceed carefully, we have the most modern, independent experience women have ever had. All we have to do is think, and do so before we speak.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-45280866112170575502010-04-24T11:48:22.227-06:002010-04-24T11:48:22.227-06:00There's a cultural narrative that says the dec...There's a cultural narrative that says the decision to not procreate is always selfish no matter what the reason(s). Women whose livelihoods depend on conforming to a narrow standard of beauty are damned if they do and damned if they don't reproduce.<br /><br />Pregnancy and childbirth (even the adoption industry) have been co-opted by patriarchy, capitalism, war and other industrial interests, but it's <i>also</i> true that the maternal mortality rate around the world is appalling, especially where medical and nutritional support are lacking. So there's that.<br /><br />The view of childbirth as being about prolonged physical agony, where women are expected to endure hours or days of excruciating pain with no relief if that's what nature dishes out, is just as troubling as the view that there's always a need for intervention. And contemporary Western medicine combines both -- the indifference to women in extreme pain <i>and</i> commandeering their very bodily processes. That's a dismal combo. Opting out of that is de-facto sane, in my opinion, for whatever reason(s).<br /><br />A general shout-out to all the great doulas out there who serve laboring women. Angels, all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-6454642063845794932010-04-24T00:57:48.759-06:002010-04-24T00:57:48.759-06:00I'm torn by this, because while I absolutely a...I'm torn by this, because while I absolutely agree with you, 100% about everything you say in this article, the part I find really problematic is that this woman, who I never heard of before people were upset she didn't want to reproduce, absolutely has a right to decide not to have children. And if she says she doesn't want to do it because she doesn't want to "spoil her body," then I'm thinking that even if you refuted this argument with an assortment of proof to the contrary, she will probably have another reason why she doesn't want to. I imagine that eventually it would come down to, she just doesn't want to. And that's fine, that's her choice. <br /><br />So, while all of the points you make about it being the fear of the thing, more than the thing itself, that makes childbearing such an intimidating experience for many women, I think its important to not forget about the need to remember an individual's agency in the matter. In the end, I think this post did not even have to mentioned Jillian Michaels.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-69940642305677246282010-04-23T23:51:12.637-06:002010-04-23T23:51:12.637-06:00I really enjoyed 95% of this article, but I think ...I really enjoyed 95% of this article, but I think that it's totally ok for Jillian Michals to not want a child for the reason she gives (and for whatever reason). <br />Without implying that she's never been guilty of fat-shaming, I believe it's a completely valid personal reason to not give birth to a child, especially considering that Jillian's career is centered around the shape of her body and her degree of "fitness".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-36731784252856656572010-04-23T23:42:35.289-06:002010-04-23T23:42:35.289-06:00Hi Rachel,
I'm here via Shakesville. I'm...Hi Rachel, <br /><br />I'm here via Shakesville. I'm a woman in my 20s. For a long time, I was absolutely terrified and horrified by the thought of childbirth. (Too much TV, perhaps? ;) ) I feared the "out of control" part of the process, and resolved never to have children. My turning point was reading <a href="http://www.dooce.com/2009/07/13/labor-story-part-one" rel="nofollow">Dooce's recent childbirth story</a>. She was in control, and she was awesome. She showed me that childbirth could be a positive experience. I now think a small "maybe" to the idea of having children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com