tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post3964278535325491590..comments2023-09-28T19:10:43.760-06:00Comments on The Feminist Agenda: The Zero-Sum Construction of MasculinityRachelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-90327106391772010742009-04-16T21:25:00.000-06:002009-04-16T21:25:00.000-06:00There are many ways to alter your lot in life that...<I>There are many ways to alter your lot in life that don't involve standing on someone else's neck.</I>Heehee.Rileynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-28135919234132377122009-04-16T16:55:00.000-06:002009-04-16T16:55:00.000-06:00I think it's more that their success isn't tied to...I think it's more that their success isn't tied to somebody else's failure. There are many ways to alter your lot in life that don't involve standing on someone else's neck. We just don't value this type of success in our culture.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-16812981354503031882009-04-16T15:45:00.000-06:002009-04-16T15:45:00.000-06:00I'm not claiming that there are no hierarchical st...<I>I'm not claiming that there are no hierarchical structures in more egalitarian cultures; just that people are not socialized to constantly be jostling for position and trying to determine their position in the hierarchy.</I>So they have been socialized to completely accept their lot in life?<br /><br />What a complete subjugation.<br /><br />If I could only learn their techniques....Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951999523806556478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-53634361857859742009-04-16T13:48:00.000-06:002009-04-16T13:48:00.000-06:00Steven,
If you study anthropology you'll find tha...Steven,<br /><br />If you study anthropology you'll find that some cultures tend to be very egalitarian while others are deeply hierarchical. In egalitarian cultures people are socialized to work cooperatively, to have flexibility in their roles and identities, etc. In hierarchical cultures much is dictated from the top down, roles and identities are strictly policed and thought to be "natural," rules are highly respected and closely followed, etc. So while it isn't the case that parents in an egalitarian culture won't give their kids guidance, it's also less likely that they'll "rule with an iron hand" and make unilateral decisions. <br /><br />I'm not claiming that there are no hierarchical structures in more egalitarian cultures; just that people are not socialized to constantly be jostling for position and trying to determine their position in the hierarchy. This is often illustrated by the fact that in the languages of cultures that tend to be very egalitarian, there are no words for some of our terminology that's used to describe hierarchy. And the dynamic I'm pointing to here is the fact that, in our culture, masculinity is defined by a constant jockeying for position which is acheived by kicking others down. This is hierarchical in the extreme, and the fact that it's a learned behavior seems pretty obvious given the fact that masculinity is not defined and established this way in other cultures.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-11678269629507225162009-04-16T10:38:00.000-06:002009-04-16T10:38:00.000-06:00Rachel,
Please explain a culture without hierarc...Rachel, <br /><br />Please explain a culture without hierarchy. One without parents over children, so forth and so on.<br /><br />My first thought is just because a culture don't assume there will be some hierarchy mean it is not there, they just don't have the tools to see it.<br /><br />Just like many American's believe we live in a classless society. Its a load of bull, but you can convince yourself of something that is not true.<br /><br />In regard to the idea that we are socialized to establish and create hierarchies... that predisposes a social determinism that I have not adopted. I believe humans are naturally disposed to many things, languages, math, music, and the creation of hierarchy fits in with the natural drive to socialize.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951999523806556478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-83555754275140768432009-04-16T09:28:00.000-06:002009-04-16T09:28:00.000-06:00@ Steven
That's true in a culture that's committe...@ Steven<br /><br />That's true in a culture that's committed to hierarchy. But in cultures where they don't assume there will always be some kind of hierarchy, there isn't. As I noted above, we're already socialized to establish and maintain hierarchies. But who knows how things would turn out if we weren't.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-32385889385843930182009-04-15T16:34:00.000-06:002009-04-15T16:34:00.000-06:00In this regard, I think adult hetero males inhabit...<I>In this regard, I think adult hetero males inhabit a world that's deeply conflicted and full of subtle tensions.</I>I like the below video as I feel it does an exelent job of explaining masculinity.<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0JUBsjCK3M<br /><br />There will always be order (hierarchy), and positions will always be gained through conflict of some sort. It does not matter if it is competition over fashion, wealth, power, social position, shit talk or back-biting.<br /><br />We can only progress so far.Stevenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951999523806556478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-83060611055758834392009-04-15T15:02:00.000-06:002009-04-15T15:02:00.000-06:00@ Ben
I would bet that you're right about men not...@ Ben<br /><br />I would bet that you're right about men not changing their basic interactions. However, I don't think it's as simple as that. I think that when you're socialized to interact with your peers a certain way, it becomes internalized and sort of becomes "second nature" to you. So I agree that adult males probably wouldn't change that much, but if we paid attention to how boys are taught to interract and tried to loosen up the script for them, I bet you'd see changes in how men communicate.LetThemEatCakenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-74625043851242148112009-04-15T14:27:00.000-06:002009-04-15T14:27:00.000-06:00@ Ben
I don't enjoy gossiping, and actually kind ...@ Ben<br /><br />I don't enjoy gossiping, and actually kind of suck at it. I think it would be good for women if the expectations that they gossip and act frivolous and silly were changed in our culture. I guess I'm not advocating that we try to prevent anyone from playing out these gendered scripts, but that we loosen up the scripts and let people act in whatever way they would naturally tend to act. If there is such a thing.<br /><br /><br />@ Riley<br /><br />Yeah, I think maybe the mean girls dynamic is zero-sum, but I haven't thought about it enough. And I've also read critiques of all the "mean girls" hype which argue that this is a way for the MSM and certain authors to objectify and sensationalize tween and teen girl culture and that the reports are vastly overstated. I'm not sure what I think. Many of the "popular girls" in my high school were incredibly brutal, and seemed to gain status from this brutality. I had an interesting perspective on it as a bystander, and it was truly sobering and depressing. So based on that I would tend to agree that this is a similar dynamic. But on the other hand you have the ideal of the "nice girl" who's all nurturing and empathetic to her friends, and I'm not sure there's a positive male correlation to this. Still thinking about this one...Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-82858048130641158732009-04-15T13:34:00.000-06:002009-04-15T13:34:00.000-06:00Excellent post. Well thought out. I would only say...Excellent post. Well thought out. I would only say that I disagree with your conclusion. I would guess that even if you educated the men about what you've written in this post and asked them if they would stop doing it, I don't think they would. I don't think men see this as "hurting" themselves. I would even go as far to say that they enjoy it and would protest anyone trying to stop them from doing it. The one-upping, locker-room, cajoling jockular beahvior is actaully enjoyable. To play the stereotype the other way, it would be like telling women that they should not gossip.<br />-BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-58097047840521582072009-04-14T21:41:00.000-06:002009-04-14T21:41:00.000-06:00I love it when you get on a kick and write several...I love it when you get on a kick and write several posts on one topic. It's like reading several chapters in the same book. And I'm glad your current kick is deconstructing masculinity, because you're cranking out some interesting stuff.<br /><br />I'm curious what your take is on the whole "mean girls" dynamic. It's undeniable that boys learn to demean each other in order to elevate themselves on the playground, but the whole "mean girls" thing suggests that girls do too. What do you think?Rileynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-17921611261956248242009-04-14T20:46:00.000-06:002009-04-14T20:46:00.000-06:00I second your vote for change!I second your vote for change!Meg'nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-82706045098341514252009-04-14T20:38:00.000-06:002009-04-14T20:38:00.000-06:00I'm impressed, as usual with your analytical skill...I'm impressed, as usual with your analytical skills, Rachel. <br /><br />Let me contribute by saying that I agree about the constructed reality that we people whistle our tunes to, us men and women. We seem incapable almost of constructing anything -- including gender -- that isn't based on some sort of hierarchy. I've read recently that constructing other forms of management in companies or large organizations is hard to achieve and difficult to maintain. It works with co-ops, but not much larger than that. <br /><br />But should we believe that? Have we just not been imaginative enough to build it yet, and so we crown our failure with the dignity of permanence and struggle on under the yoke of an ill-fitting constructed gender identity? Maybe the insight we need is right around the corner. Maybe the thinker who thinks it is alive right now. I like to think so.<br /><br />I'm pretty sure he isn't me, but maybe just by being cautious about not using terms like "cocksucker" and then asking my girlfriend to suck my cock is a good place to start.<br /><br />Thanks!ManPantshttp://rentmyflesh.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.com