tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post6729563732838045730..comments2023-09-28T19:10:43.760-06:00Comments on The Feminist Agenda: PassingRachelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-54811567815182146282009-04-21T20:38:00.000-06:002009-04-21T20:38:00.000-06:00Anonymous,
I didn't get the impression that Rache...Anonymous,<br /><br />I didn't get the impression that Rachel was doing that, and many of us who have commented here are trans. What exactly is making you feel uncomfortable?Baileynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-86225319145449859492009-04-21T09:43:00.000-06:002009-04-21T09:43:00.000-06:00Im really uncomfprtable with cis people discussing...Im really uncomfprtable with cis people discussing the experience of trans people. I don't think you can compare your experience to mine. Their not the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-35467358988554987732009-04-10T13:37:00.000-06:002009-04-10T13:37:00.000-06:00OK, Rachel, since you're such an expert with the o...OK, Rachel, since you're such an expert with the online survey tool (she designed a kick-ass survey for me at work) why don't you make up a poll on this? It would be interesting to see both identity: cis (male or female) genderqueer, trans, other and whether or not the person experiences gender identity as separate from gender expression. It would also be nice to leave an open comment box where they could describe their experience with this.Saranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-89814510957831727752009-04-10T10:00:00.000-06:002009-04-10T10:00:00.000-06:00@ dianamaybe a part of the problem is that if you ...@ diana<BR/><BR/><I>maybe a part of the problem is that if you think of your earliest experiences, you were just a child, and children tend to think of things in fairly shallow terms, which may explain why your cousin expresses it in terms of interest in toys and clothes</I><BR/><BR/>That's a really great point that I hadn't thought of.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-57656943721086192332009-04-10T09:13:00.000-06:002009-04-10T09:13:00.000-06:00Hi Lucy, Rachel, Lizzay, and diana,I'm a transman,...Hi Lucy, Rachel, Lizzay, and diana,<BR/><BR/>I'm a transman, and for me it was never really that I felt "like a man," but more that I didn't at all feel "like a woman." I've talked to two other transmen who express it this way too. But I'm very early in the transitioning process. It might be that as time goes by and I become more comfortable my inner feelings will change from the negative (am not a woman) to the positive identity (am a man). It would be interesting to see a poll done asking a lot of transfolk how they experience this.Baileynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-87819485218461933502009-04-10T00:14:00.000-06:002009-04-10T00:14:00.000-06:00i'm not sure i can add that much to this discussio...i'm not sure i can add that much to this discussion, but it seems interesting and i'm glad somebody's having it. i'm a transwoman and i'm pondering this distinction in terms of my own experience right now. i've strongly identified as a girl/woman for as long as i can remember, but it is hard to distinguish that from the external manifestations of gender that you guys are referring too. maybe a part of the problem is that if you think of your earliest experiences, you were just a child, and children tend to think of things in fairly shallow terms, which may explain why your cousin expresses it in terms of interest in toys and clothes. so maybe the mismatched gender identity manifests itslef in the form of an interest in the outward expressions of gender, or maybe these aren't really that distinct from each other, but one grows out of the other. maybe the identity grows out of the scrip, and some of us are really, really uncomfortable with the script we're born into, so we never fully acquire the identity.<BR/><BR/>but that sounds kind of dismissive of the experiences of others, and i don't want to dimis anyones lived experiences.<BR/><BR/>i really like your blog, and it seems refreshingly un-exclusionary. but i kind of have low expectations for feminists blogs along those lines. :-(diananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-40624163518580134382009-04-09T23:52:00.000-06:002009-04-09T23:52:00.000-06:00Maybe the gender expression/gender identity distin...Maybe the gender expression/gender identity distinction is more clear for people who have always had conflict with or rejected the gender they were assigned at birth. Maybe if you didn't experience this big tension, you're just unaware of your gender identity as it just sort of exists in the background for you. I guess if I think about it long enough I'm not really sure what it mean to feel like a woman or identify as a woman either, beyond the performance of gender. But maybe that's just because my gender assignment has always been relatively unproblematic for me.<BR/><BR/>It would be interesting to hear how other trans folk would describe this.Lizzaynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-49151033477298853832009-04-08T09:07:00.000-06:002009-04-08T09:07:00.000-06:00I actually think of this as another area where pri...I actually think of this as another area where privilege is at play. I have far more flexibility and room to play with gender and/or refuse to perform it altogether because I fall into the heterosexual, conventionally attractive, able-bodied, and athletic categories. For me it's not an issue of safety, and the worst I've gotten is a lot of raised eyebrows, which I can handle. So I think that feminists who share my view that gender is something that should be challenged, stretched out, illuminated as a restrictive social contruct, etc should also realize that many people don't have the luxury of safely engaging in gender-challenging behavior. But since I'm in the business of raising two girls, and I want them to have the freedom to really explore their world and choose their own identities (to whatever extent that's actually possible), I feel that it's all the more important for me not to conform and perform gender in any way that makes me feel uncomfortable.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-21367327485281558682009-04-08T01:07:00.000-06:002009-04-08T01:07:00.000-06:00I do wonder if it isn't a minority of people who h...I do wonder if it isn't a minority of people who have a strong inner gender identity rather than one based on what has been assigned to them. Language for describing how one feels gender identity is totally lacking. I can only say it's the way I identify and it has nothing to do with clothing or toys. And, I suspect my wanting to be around girls/women since I was little has more to do with my sexual orientation than my gender identity. It is quite frustrating to not be able to be able to do anything more than assert my identity because it comes off sort of woo-woo. Though I suppose the same is true for sexual orientation.<BR/><BR/>No, you didn't sound that way. I brought that to your article because of reading too many trans-negative articles on gender expression by a certain stripe of feminists. So, the fault is mine. Anyway, it does disturb me when anyone buys into the social script without question. Moreso when it's trans folk because I think it should be more obvious to us that it's all a social construct. But clearly I'm projecting myself onto others since there are those who accept it as though it is a natural law.Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885002383543350633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-1323696181009369302009-04-07T16:42:00.000-06:002009-04-07T16:42:00.000-06:00@LucyThis is a really interesting distinction that...@Lucy<BR/><BR/>This is a really interesting distinction that I've heard before. I guess I'm not in a very good position to analyze the distinction between gender expression and gender identity, because to me it's always been about gender expression, or actually, flying under the radar. I've never felt particularly feminine, but I don't feel masculine either. I can't even really comprehend what it means to "feel like a woman." My cousin (D) and I have had this conversation before, though, because she claims that she always "felt like a girl" even as she was growing up as a boy in very conservative, small town MN. <BR/><BR/>Maybe part of the problem is the only way we can describe what it is to "feel like a girl/woman" takes the form of gender expression. D was always jealous of girls clothes and toys and more interested in playing with the girls at recess. To me that's all gender expression, but it may just be that this is an experience that's easy to identify but hard to describe. And I may just be abnormal with my total lack of gender identity other than what's been socialized into me. I mean, I can pass very easily, partly because of my natural appearance which tends to conform to gender norms even without the clothes, makeup, and hair styling which I can't bring myself to fuck around with. And being athletic helps, as people dismiss your androgynous behavior as being tomboyish. But I used to think something was wrong with me precisely because I'm so lacking in the gender identity. Now I suspect others are too, but have also learned to hide it.<BR/><BR/>And I totally agree that there's nothing negative about passing - it's just more visible, and more of a conscious effort for trans people, and an issue of safety. So I had no intention of shaming people or portraying passing as a negative thing. I hope it didn't sound that way! I think the fact that we as a society still insist that you pick one is the problem, not the individuals who conform based on their own desires or concern for their safety.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-76763784512365218332009-04-07T14:43:00.000-06:002009-04-07T14:43:00.000-06:00But [transitioning is] still thought of as a proce...<I>But [transitioning is] still thought of as a process of truly becoming feminine or masculine, and is not just a question of learning how to follow the script, and rejecting the script altogether is not an option.</I><BR/><BR/>Trans woman here who doesn't agree with that. There are two aspect of gender: gender identity and gender expression. People, cis and trans alike, often confuse the two as being the same thing. The script you talk about is gender expression which I see as entirely a social construction of what it means to be a certain gender. Gender identity seems to be more fixed and is why I identify as a woman.<BR/><BR/>I try to consciously choose what parts of the script I accept and what I reject. I choose when I try to pass and when I could care less. However, it is important to remember that for trans people passing is quite possibly the only thing keeping them whole and alive. Our society does not tolerate well violating the gender binary. Enforcement can be brutal and sometimes deadly. So adhering to the gender binary can be as much a strategy (as it is for me) as an honest buying-in. YMMV.Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885002383543350633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-8352976475115576922009-04-07T12:51:00.000-06:002009-04-07T12:51:00.000-06:00@ JacksonAre you arguing that gender is intrinsica...@ Jackson<BR/><BR/>Are you arguing that gender is intrinsically tied to sex, or that somehow these aren't social categories that are imposed on the physical? It's hard to tell what your position is.Meg'nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-41414759805004195282009-04-07T11:09:00.000-06:002009-04-07T11:09:00.000-06:00But acting girly really does come natural for a lo...But acting girly really does come natural for a lot of women. So I'm not sure I agree with your claim that everyone's passing. And most transsexuals feel that their inherently gendered, but it's just the wrong gender to match their body. So they're not "performing" gender anymore than cisgendered people are.Jacksonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-58036772421944321562009-04-07T09:47:00.000-06:002009-04-07T09:47:00.000-06:00Some of the comments on that feminsting post were ...Some of the comments on that feminsting post were really depressing.Meg'nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-46986735306283812092009-04-07T08:18:00.000-06:002009-04-07T08:18:00.000-06:00I'd never thought about the difference between pas...I'd never thought about the difference between passing and covering before. It seems like a lot of times people mislabel covering as passing. Interesting...Rileynoreply@blogger.com