tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post1360357464735950098..comments2023-09-28T19:10:43.760-06:00Comments on The Feminist Agenda: National Day of the CowboyRachelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-58240448479295781242010-09-03T15:48:30.431-06:002010-09-03T15:48:30.431-06:00Well said. The life of the cowboy had nothing at a...Well said. The life of the cowboy had nothing at all to do with a John Wayne movie. It was and still is hard, dirty, dangerous, work with low pay and very few benefits. In that way it is still like the cowboy's life of old.<br /><br />Contrary to what most Americans think, the cowboy did not begin with Clint Eastwood or John Wayne. When the first Anglos came into the Southwest, the cattle industry was long in existence and the Anglos learned everything--that is everything--from the Mexican vaquero. The cowboy's attire is an evolution of the vaquero's clothing and every word in the industry is right from Spanish although the Anglo corrupted many of them. Without the Mexcian vaquero there would be no gringo cowboy. Many in ranching know this, many Americans not in the industry would fight against this truth.<br /><br />There is nothing wrong with keeping the western and cowboy tradition alive. Just drop the arrogance and give credit where credit is due. <br /><br />Ironic that many who praise the Cowboy lifestyle are the same xenophobes who rail against Mexicans.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-32308308564244540212009-08-03T16:14:00.729-06:002009-08-03T16:14:00.729-06:00This has been really interesting. I agree people ...This has been really interesting. I agree people conflate the mythology and reality of what it means to be a cowboy in America. BurnBrother seems to be illustrating this pretty well; a criticism of the mythology is not a criticism of the ideals we have ascribed (accurately or not) to it.<br /><br />This whole discussion makes me think of the scene in Back to the Future III when Michael J. Fox's character travels back to California in 1885 dresses how he expects others to dress: www.thegoldencloset.com/merchant/graphics/00000001/S0029d.jpgKat+Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11009795241554432308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-82066874221618470432009-08-03T15:29:33.791-06:002009-08-03T15:29:33.791-06:00I don't usually comment very often. I would li...I don't usually comment very often. I would like to say that I find Rachel's critiques very well thought out even when I disagree. <br /><br />I have a few points. First I would like to apologize for Mr. Burner's comments. Not everyone from the state where I grew up is like that. Second, I would very much question the idea that the cowboy ethic is mysogynist in its entirety. Wyoming was after all the first state to give women the right to vote. It's written into their state constitution. My great-grandmother was one of those homestedder women that people talk about. According to those who knew her closely, She came to Montana before the turn of the 19th century, but no one ever told her what to do. In fact she ran things, and she told people where to get off. <br /><br />The western ethic is many things, I agree with your assessment that the work was hard. That sometimes the individualism card is overplayed, when in reality government helped to build the west, especially in the case of the railroads. Sometimes we have a tendency to romanticize too much, but in the context of the 19th and early 20th century I would hesitate to call the western ethic mysogynist. <br /><br />Thank you for this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-44720657041770325062009-08-03T15:23:33.639-06:002009-08-03T15:23:33.639-06:00Where is the threat, other than between you and yo...Where is the threat, other than between you and your sister's ears?<br /><br />I'm at a bit of a disadvantage here with no way to confirm that you did or didn't share your views with locals. Frankly, I think you're full of it, but that's fine.<br /><br />How about this for a fair approach...Page print or email the text of your original post to the local newspaper and request that it be published as a Letter to the Editor. That would assure fair and balanced exposure to the locals. Seems fair, right?<br /><br />Just let us know here on the blog when you do it and we all can follow the feedback directly in the community newspaper. <br /><br />Seems I remember you saying you had Balls. Here is your opportunity to step up and prove it!BurnBrotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04591664997592114722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-35501334834059555462009-08-03T15:00:12.046-06:002009-08-03T15:00:12.046-06:00I'm not sure how you know I've never share...I'm not sure how you know I've never shared my thoughts on cowboy culture with "locals." Are you omniscient? FWIW, I've had discussions on parts of this post with a number of friends who live here - some who are native to this part of the country, and some who are transplants. Nobody has threatened me yet though, except you.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-79603299189041899442009-08-03T14:34:22.917-06:002009-08-03T14:34:22.917-06:00@ voiceofreason - Seems like I've seen your MO...@ voiceofreason - Seems like I've seen your MO before. Was it the Salem Witch Trials? If this is your chain of evidence process you folks are in serious trouble.<br /><br />One more time - Leave Brad Alone. It's me, your Buddy Burn. Unlike you folks I'm not interested in blaming people that aren't involved.BurnBrotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04591664997592114722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-50954023781608269302009-08-03T14:15:43.357-06:002009-08-03T14:15:43.357-06:00Hey Girls!!! - Leave Brad alone. He isn't me....Hey Girls!!! - Leave Brad alone. He isn't me. I must add that I respect his ability to take sh*t off Rachel in Feministing. Good Man, although a bit too willing to put up with you goofs.<br /><br />Spare me the "vaguely threatening" BS. You should work for Disney. I'm suggesting that if she has the guts to share with locals in Wyoming the opinions she so freely shares on this site (which I'm sure she doesn't have the guts to do) she can expect to receive a different response from you lightweights. Pretty cool how you automatically shift into victim mode though. Didn't miss a beat.BurnBrotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04591664997592114722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-89978694747598329102009-08-03T13:38:36.497-06:002009-08-03T13:38:36.497-06:00Meg'n,
Click here.Meg'n,<br /><br />Click <a href="http://community.feministing.com/2009/07/otty-sanchez-and-watching-wome.html#comment-284011" rel="nofollow">here</a>.voiceofreasonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-1270008104088238622009-08-03T13:35:26.344-06:002009-08-03T13:35:26.344-06:00OK, now I'm confused. How do we know Burn is ...OK, now I'm confused. How do we know Burn is Brad? I think I missed something.Meg'nnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-89954571383348853552009-08-03T13:32:54.354-06:002009-08-03T13:32:54.354-06:00Brad,
Your "stay on your toes" comment ...Brad,<br /><br />Your "stay on your toes" comment was vaguely threatening (what exactly are you suggesting is going to happen to her?), and you comments about her kid crossed the line. I'm not the only one to point this out.chaelakingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-3640117300499204132009-08-03T12:53:57.788-06:002009-08-03T12:53:57.788-06:00OMG Rachel, I think you're right!
Poor dissed...OMG Rachel, I think you're right!<br /><br />Poor dissed MRA troll. Still hasn't responded to a single point you made, though.voiceofreasonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-69449901015741171032009-08-03T12:52:37.656-06:002009-08-03T12:52:37.656-06:00See you around, Brad.See you around, Brad.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-66892592271190808802009-08-03T11:46:47.587-06:002009-08-03T11:46:47.587-06:00Those of you that are somehow confused about the c...Those of you that are somehow confused about the current real role of women in combat.<br /><br />Please do some research before you pop off. The DoD (Department of Defense) has officially not allowed women in direct combat roles. There are all kinds of reasons that this is the case. I know it doesn't fit with your polyannaish view of the world, but it turns out they can't physically keep up. <br /><br />The women previously mentioned by other posters that died were not in direct combat positions. Some were in transportation and got caught in the crossfire. It's a fact. Check it.BurnBrotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04591664997592114722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-81008337963707642532009-08-03T11:29:23.449-06:002009-08-03T11:29:23.449-06:00@ Rachel - are you smoking crack? Where did I mak...@ Rachel - are you smoking crack? Where did I make threats, vague or otherwise to anyone? The only reason I landed on your blog was after reviewing YOUR insulting comments to other posters on Feministing and clicking your link. Trust me when I tell you this, after reviewing your perspective on reality in this space I won't be wasting any time with you going forward. <br /><br />Don't even THINK about pitching BS about me about my posts being insulting to womenfolk and children. Where was that? It's amazing to me how quickly you shift from being the assertive feminist Whatever to projecting you, your clones and your child as victims?!? Victims of what? Unbelievable.<br /><br />As near as I can tell you don't have any problem talking sh*t to other posters in any forum. Then you have the guts to say I am insulting people. Take a look in the mirror Sunshine.<br /><br />I want to close on a positive note. Between your foolishness and the morons over at Feministing you guys have successfully motivated me to become actively involved in Men's Rights. So I Thank You for that. Shame on me, I've been too busy working and contributing over the past many years to really understand the type of idiocy people like you are trying to spread.<br /><br />The attitude and approach of you and people like you are exactly what will guarantee that the Feminist Movement in general will continue to have less impact on society going forward.BurnBrotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04591664997592114722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-72839580081784315942009-08-03T09:28:49.812-06:002009-08-03T09:28:49.812-06:00Cont'd
As to your initial comment:
1) I neve...Cont'd<br /><br />As to your initial comment:<br /><br />1) I never said I haven’t given cowboy culture some serious thought. The word "initially" actually just means "at first" as in "when I first moved here." But that was five years ago, and I’ve lived here and worked here and taught courses here since then, and have had many opportunities to interact with cowboy culture and ponder its role in our broader culture, in our history, in our self-conceptions, etc.<br /><br />2) I’m not throwing rocks at "cowboys." I also observe with amused interest the hipsters and granola types and yuppies that are so prevalent in the cities where I come from. Anyone who unquestioningly adopts a ready-made identity and shows a slavish commitment to it is interesting and a bit puzzling and strange to me. And analyzing people and social dynamics is just what I do.<br /><br />3) There’s not really a text I could quote in this case, because this post was about my observations of cowboy culture, after living immersed in it for several years. On the other hand, you didn’t cite any textual sources to back your observations of your lived experience either. In the future I assume you'll either abstain from commenting on the culture in which you're immersed unless you have textual evidence, or stop demanding that others provide textual suport for their lived experience.<br /><br />4) I don’t take myself to be an expert on any culture, but there are a lot of things you can know about the people you live around and the culture of your community just by keeping your eyes open. I assume that’s why you reference your cultural expertise concerning Seattle and LA – because you’ve lived there and have experienced the culture first-hand. Ditto for me.<br /><br />5) I’m at a total loss as to the paying taxes thing. Please quote where I said that people in Wyoming don’t pay taxes. Please cite <i>your</i> source that justifies your assumption that I don’t pay taxes. If you don’t have a source, then please stop making insulting assumptions about me.<br /><br />6) I didn’t "move into a state fully prepared to talk about their culture." I’ve lived here for some time, and now I’m finally commenting on one feature of the culture here.<br /><br />7) I never said the culture is screwed up and backward.<br /><br />8) I never said I don’t like Wyoming.<br /><br />9) I’m astounded that you read Feministing.<br /><br />10) I couldn’t give a fuck what you think about my other posts and comments, but referencing other things I’ve said is wholly irrelevant to this current discussion (another fallacy known as "poisoning the well"). If you disagree with what I’ve said here, by all means, please refute it. Show me how I’m wrong. Take my post point by point, and reveal the evidence which contradicts it. You haven’t done this. In fact, you have yet to address even <i>one</i> point I made. I await a true response from you with baited breath.<br /><br />11) Comments about my kid and vague threats are completely out of bounds here. Any further comments from you that are either insulting (to the person, not their comments) or threatening will be deleted immediately. Isn't it against the "cowboy code" to insult and threaten womenfolk and children?<br /><br />Finally, I have no idea why you think I’m talking about the military, but your comments on the topic amount to a thread de-rail. Either discuss the current topic or move along. In this thread we’re talking about cowboy culture and the role the cowboy ideal plays in our modern day world. Diverting the discussion to military service, and hurling insults at other commenters does not contribute to the discussion. We’re interested in constructive dialogue, and if you are too, then you’re welcome to engage in the discussion.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-1472756390983335082009-08-03T09:27:52.128-06:002009-08-03T09:27:52.128-06:00BurnBrother,
Most of your comments here are arrog...BurnBrother,<br /><br />Most of your comments here are arrogant and condescending (not to mention misogynist), and don’t merit much of a response. But here goes. <br /><br />In case you’re actually interested in critical thinking and argumentation (which I teach as one of my jobs, on which I do in fact pay taxes, as if that’s relevant to <b>any</b> of this) here’s a quick primer:<br /><br />1) Responding to someone’s argument with totally irrelevant claims and then acting as if you’ve rebutted their position constitutes the fallacy of the red herring. Irrelevant info is just that – irrelevant, and I generally just ignore it, since it’s, ya know, irrelevant.<br /><br />2) Making up arguments and attributing them to your opponent before handily demolishing them also does nothing to establish your argumentational prowess. This is known as the fallacy of the strawman argument. Combating the silly strawmen you’ve invented may be fun for you, but it’s hardly relevant to me or anything I’ve actually said. <br /><br />As to your speculations about my motherly duties, I was away from the computer yesterday because I was out hiking with my daughter. ‘Cause, ya know, women can still be active and adventurous and athletic even though they’re also mothers.Rachelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08203151255248154129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-64395404224734028372009-08-03T08:36:35.684-06:002009-08-03T08:36:35.684-06:00Burn,
Woman actually have served in a number of c...Burn,<br /><br />Woman actually have served in a number of combat roles in the military at least since 1994, and legally since 2005. Google it, "Dude."Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-13574534958009871822009-08-03T08:35:18.258-06:002009-08-03T08:35:18.258-06:00Perhaps for discussion you should actually define ...<i>Perhaps for discussion you should actually define what Cowboy Culture is to you, without conflating it with being a soldier.</i><br /><br />Well said!K8noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-4283203219366728362009-08-03T03:56:08.666-06:002009-08-03T03:56:08.666-06:00I don't think you can deny that the Cowboy wor...I don't think you can deny that the Cowboy world is no longer in existence. You say you've worked for various multinational corporations. I can't think of anything more antithetical to the Cowboy Culture. Multinational corporations have a lot to do with why regular folks can't be farmers anymore. Giant companies do all the farming now. Rugged individualism has no place on the corporate mechanized mega-farm. You do it their way or you get the hell out. And can you honestly say you're in any real danger anymore? People's existence anywhere in the "Wild West" is more or less guaranteed now. What conquering of the land are you guys doing now?<br /><br />"Finally Sister...maybe you think you have balls, but for a real world check try sharing your shallow, judgmental, bigoted perspective with a true local and see how far it gets you. <br /><br />A helpful suggestion if you do...Stay on your toes..."<br />-Very nice, another threat. Which leads me to Susan Faludi's explanation of the Cowboy myth. She explains it more thoroughly in her book "The Terror Dream" but there's an early version of her ideas online: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0330-03.htm<br /><br />Your threats seem to go against the whole Cowboy credo: "Teddy Roosevelt, in 'The Cattle Country of the Far West,' called cowboys 'quiet, rather self-contained men.' ... It's worth recalling that the cowboy of the myth wasn't trigger happy and he wasn't a dominator... And his honor was grounded on his civilized refusal to fire first. 'Didn't I tell you he'd not shoot?' says a spectator to a gun fight that didn't happen in 'The Virginian,' Owen Wister's 1902 novel. 'He's a brave man,' he adds. 'It's not a brave man that's dangerous. It's the cowards that scare me.'"<br /><br />At any rate, one thing I haven't seen you challenge is Rachel's stated idea of the Cowboy:<br />"Cowboys are self-sufficient, rugged individualists, not beholden to anyone, in touch with the natural world, not afraid to face the elements, completely dominant in their relationships with animals, not contained or defined by their fleeting relations with employers, the law, the "establishment," or any woman. They have a strong internal moral compass, and a simple view of morality, politics, and human relations."<br />"In reality, the day-to-day life of a cowboy probably had much more in common with the daily life of a migrant farm worker than with the life we endow cowboys with in our imaginations. And who fantasizes about that? Working long hours in the heat and the dust for low pay and no respect and no job security and no pension and no health care and not even a decent place to call home only to be disposed of as so much garbage once you're too old to work."<br />-Are these not correct? Perhaps for discussion you should actually define what Cowboy Culture is to you, without conflating it with being a soldier.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-4719487677096885082009-08-03T03:55:37.903-06:002009-08-03T03:55:37.903-06:00Although annoying and sort of disturbing, BurnBrot...Although annoying and sort of disturbing, BurnBrother's rebuttals here have been slowly revealing his prejudices, especially the parts where he responds with totally unrelated information.<br /><br />"Actually, like allot of the folks in Wyoming you like to speak ill of, I've actually been paying taxes over that time period."<br />-I don't recall the part where she says you don't pay taxes.<br /><br />"Cute Kid. Hope its not a boy or he's gonna have a tough life"<br />-A nice, vaguely threatening statement. He refers to the kid again in a later post.<br /><br />"I imagine that if you want to make a Dude feel guilty for being successful or competent for some reason your Beta has experience "taking it" from you, so Rock On."<br />-She said you were tooting your horn, so I don't think she wants a "Dude" (love the capitalization of dude!) to feel guilty for being successful or competent. She is commenting on one particular Dude tooting his own horn.<br /><br />"Until you and your girlfriends start giving up your lives and freedom I'm really not buying your program. I'm having some trouble understanding how someone steps up, takes a bullet for another citizen and you goofs somehow twist it into something other than the amazing and beautiful thing that it is"<br />-Here's where he really starts to go off the deep end. This is his first hint at misogyny. Imagine if someone went on whatever blog he frequents and started condescendingly talking about him and his boyfriends? Then, all of a sudden, everything is about the military. I don't recall Rachel saying anything at all about people who sacrifice their lives in the military. <br /><br />"The Cowboy Culture IS literally what keeps you people free. It might be called by other names, but it's the willingness of guys YOU DON'T KNOW, to put their lives on the line that keeps you and your sisters safe."<br />OK... so is Cowboy Culture heroism, then? Is it bravery? Is everyone who is brave or heroic a Cowboy, do they subscribe to Cowboy Culture? The two are apparently one and the same according to his line of reasoning.<br /><br />"That's the problem with you girls, you're always about drama, but when the chips are down seems like you aren't wanting to be a "Cowboy" or anything else that get's you remotely close to "risk of life"."<br />Ah, now the full-on misogyny hinted at earlier comes out. Now, if Rachel had said, "Cowboys are stupid because they are always risking their lives for women" then I might understand where you're coming from. As is, you sound like a person who's sense of self and self-confidence has been, as you percieve it, threatened and belittled. And now you stumble upon a bunch of feminists talking about your dear Cowboy Culture and you start going off on things not even said in the article.<br /><br />"Check it out. If they get killed it is by accident. Only the guys get put in harms way on purpose. How's that for Equality? We need some Girl Power in that equation, don't you think?"<br />-Nice. So any woman killed in combat is killed on "accident," rather than killed while serving their country. They are merely a by-product of the men fighting and their contribution means nothing, apparently. Although recently women have ended up in combat and have acted Cowboy-like (I guess), risking their lives and kicking some ass (see: Ashley Pullen, Leigh Ann Hester). As for your latter question, I think many, or at least some, feminists would agree with you that women should be allowed to participate in combat. So, uhh, Girl Power!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-40191061975492808562009-08-02T23:00:30.724-06:002009-08-02T23:00:30.724-06:00@ tessa - Connect the dots. Better yet, talk to s...@ tessa - Connect the dots. Better yet, talk to some guy that actually has to think about this as a risk to his life, versus your theoretical BS. The fact that you don't get the connections speaks volumes about your understanding of the Cowboy mindset.<br /><br />@ K8 - Women in the military don't officially serve in combat roles. As far as I know this is governed by statute. Check it out. If they get killed it is by accident. Only the guys get put in harms way on purpose. How's that for Equality? We need some Girl Power in that equation, don't you think?BurnBrotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04591664997592114722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-82550774630132339652009-08-02T22:48:48.257-06:002009-08-02T22:48:48.257-06:00@K8 / Megan - Nice try on the "too fine of di...@K8 / Megan - Nice try on the "too fine of distinction comment". I now understand that you are another genius feminist. Although I'm a limited male type of a guy I think I get the "Ideal Thing".<br /><br />How about this for a deal...Let's put some societal expectations on you and your girlfriends that you should be expected to take a bullet to keep the current status quo going. <br /><br />Seems like that kinda stretches beyond the "Ideal". That's the problem with you girls, you're always about drama, but when the chips are down seems like you aren't wanting to be a "Cowboy" or anything else that get's you remotely close to "risk of life".BurnBrotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04591664997592114722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-76678990688679869782009-08-02T22:42:59.331-06:002009-08-02T22:42:59.331-06:00Way to erase all the women serving in the military...Way to erase all the women serving in the military, Burn. Are you going to be eternally grateful if one of them "takes a bullet for you"?K8noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-56532407638355692862009-08-02T22:42:00.765-06:002009-08-02T22:42:00.765-06:00Burn,
This post is about cowboy culture and the c...Burn,<br /><br />This post is about <b>cowboy culture</b> and <b>the cowboy ideal</b>. What on earth does that have to do with the military? And where in this post did she talk about the military? Are you now claiming to be a mind-reader and to know what Rachel thinks about the military?Tessanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6142743576584523533.post-25136679396766911412009-08-02T22:18:19.559-06:002009-08-02T22:18:19.559-06:00@ Tessa - You seem like you kind of get it, so how...@ Tessa - You seem like you kind of get it, so how about this...<br /><br />Until you and your girlfriends start giving up your lives and freedom I'm really not buying your program. I'm having some trouble understanding how someone steps up, takes a bullet for another citizen and you goofs somehow twist it into something other than the amazing and beautiful thing that it is. <br /><br />This makes me sick. The Cowboy Culture IS literally what keeps you people free. It might be called by other names, but it's the willingness of guys YOU DON'T KNOW, to put their lives on the line that keeps you and your sisters safe.<br /><br />So maybe you girls (and Frank) don't see it, but the same thing that makes a guy a "Cowboy" makes him the kind of guy that will die for you, without having ever met you. <br /><br />I'm sure you're going to give me the normal feminist brush off on this, but trust me, you guys don't get it. All of you should be ashamed, but I doubt you are.BurnBrotherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04591664997592114722noreply@blogger.com